Dom's clinic yesterday

[PocketPlayer]

Hey Andy...glad to hear you graduated!

"The switch makes sense because he's a singles guy. The best singles guys = matched grip. (Neil Peart, Dennis, Novak plays all his singles stuff matched grip, Bozzio) The best Doubles guys = conventional grip (Vinnie, Weckl, Smith, Virg)"

I found this comment interesting. I don't think this way--categorizing drummers into singles players & doubles players. I'd like to hear more on this insight and how this impacts certain styles of music. How does one move towards this--natural feel?

[XNavyDrummer]

Thanks Pocket! (me too!)

I don't know about categorizing matched and trad players into singles and doubles guys (Vinnie and Dave both have great singles and both can play great matched grip). But it is interesting to consider the "sound" from playing matched as opposed to playing traditional.

Weckl talks about the type of stick motion that traditional grip lends to jazz playing. There are sounds you can get out of a trad. grip that you can't get out of a matched grip.

[Derek DeFields]

My opinion is that the only difference is mental. (I only play trad if that means anything)

Also, while I completely agree with Peter that the playing open allows more accents with much more ease, I don't like the way it feels. (physically) Not as much as crossing over. For example, playing backbeats on snare and xhat just doesn't feel as ballsy to me as crossing over.

Like I said, all mental.

[peter c]

Hey, Derek.

I started playing the drums trad, way back
in 1975. I did not try matched until the
following year, at Tony's suggestion. It
felt WAY-WEIRD. Tony insisted. I resisted.

That's kind of the way it was between us, at
the time. I admit that I was very young and
did not appreciate him fully, knowing more
of his 2nd-Lifetime incarnation and his work
with Stanley Clarke on that iconic release
with Bill Connors and Jan Hammer.

Tony was changing dramatically. He was at-
tacking more forcefully, even experimenting
with open-playing - as well as twirling!
Rock was getting under his skin, both sonic-
ally and visually. As hard as he wanted to
hit the drums, trad could no longer satisfy
his need. He went to matched.

Later on in his career, he would go back
to trad often, reverting to Jazz as his
primary focus. I think some of his better
work came from that period, with his great
Quintet, including Wallace Roney.

I had made contact with him during that
1970's-period, while he was with Holdsworth.
That may not have been the best time to study
with Tony Williams. Looking back on his de-
velopment, I am most interested in the period
of Miles but that's not to say that he was
not exploring worthy territory.

His development, in the use flams, was turn-
ing the world upside down, along with his
signature, rising-singles (right-hand lead).
Of course, I was in rapture and I wanted to
go here. I did not, however, take to matched
and attempted these singles, trad. I was
just hurting myself - I mean blood!

[img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

To get them as loud as he wanted them, much
less, hitting the black-dot, I was quickly
getting frustrated. He was hard and very
negative, unlike what you hear people saying
about him these days. I think it was a bad
period for him - the Jaco thing etc. He
was an angry man. At the same time, it left
a mark on me, to this day.

[img]mad.gif[/img]

When I think of Tony or someone like Billy,
I not only think of the sound but the feel-
ing. I mean ACTUALLY feeling like these guys
when you play. Stanley once said of Billy
that he could tell when he was playing by
just one stroke. It was the attack of the
drum that separated him. He felt the same
way about Tony. He loved him, as many of us
do but loving, not to mention studying with,
him are two different matters entirely.

There IS a difference between matched and
trad and that's what we all have to consider,
when we play. While Vinnie is one of THE
MOST attacking of trad-players, he is not
anything like Tony and Billy. Don't get me
wrong. Most musical situations don't require
the kind of force of a Tony or Billy. When
they do come up, Vinnie shines, of course,
as he does with practically anything he does.
He's one of my very favorite players.

That being said, I must admit now that,
when I saw Virgil Donati, all of my prior
conceptions about trad had to go out the
window. I have never seen anything like him.
Well... actually since Buddy Rich. His com-
mand over trad is just astounding. I have
seen him on video, live and in clinic. How
he can generate such power, using trad, is
just evolutionary.

Of course, power is not everything. It's
not even a high percentage of the cake but
for some, it is more desirable. If ever there
was a dynamic contrast in one player, it's
in Virgil. For now, he has focused his at-
tention on a certain genre, which he likes
and that's his perogative. Not everyone digs
Planet X but I remember people saying the
same thing about Tony and his Lifetime(s).

We'll forever talk about the advantages and
disadvantages of matched and trad. With guys
like Virgil around, it's a tough case, both
ways but isn't it nice to have an alternative
and alternatives backed in the real world?!

We're all in different places and that's good!

In the end, it's still about how dynamic we
are, with whatever grip we use and how right
what we do is for the music.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

[FuseU1]

Nice post.
Pertaining to Virg: his 1st 2 solo discs [OTV/SYI & Stretch], & PX [Live Oz & Moonbabies; or any, FTM] are quite simply, astounding performances; jaw-dropping rhythmically [within the context of what seems to be his forte - [& to commit the misdemeanor of categorizing, for lack of better termonology] - "prog-rock-fusion." Conceptually & technically, he is a musical force to be reckoned with. [Guess we kinda got off the Dom topic, sorry...]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2003 02:43 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[bryan v]

wow, this is an explosive topic!
I went to see Dom last night in Montreal... people started asking about other players... Dom said that in his conversations with Virgil, Virgil doesn't recomend that anyone learn to play traditional! He said that he has spent thousands of hours to get his left hand playing smoothly with traditional and that it still doesn't feel as comfortable as his right hand.

Also, Dom said that Steve Gadd is playing more and more often now with matched grip too...

When someone said that they thought the trend nowadays is going towards traditional, Dom exclaimed that the trend now is playing OPEN!!

This clinic definitely got me reevaluationg things.... its good to read everyone's opinions at HOD...

BV

[peter c]

I never heard Virgil say that
about his left-hand but I can
believe it.

I'm not surprised.

Steve plays matched at times
but all of his precision work
is done traditional.

It's hard to change horses mid-
stream as we can all attest.

Power to you, Dom!

[img]cool.gif[/img]

[McKenzie]

I agree with much that has been said on both sides. Matched overall probably is more efficient. Yes matched employing certain techniques is an easier grip to use. But I do agree with Steve and Shedder and Peter that Traditional players overall sound better in many respects. Speaking Of Virg he has said that matched overall is easier to master for sure but that he believes traditional in executing things with the left hand just flat out sounds and feels better than with matched even though matched might be easier to use. Obviously the guy had to work his Butt off! to do what he does with Traditional(executes many things that even those with matched cannot do) I agree that some of the amazing technicians like Mike M. and Marco do great things with matched but I like Shedder do not like their sound and feel. As Steve said guy's like Virg, Vinnie and Dave among others pull off the doubles and other sticking's with traditional that just sound more fluid and IMO just comes out better. But hey both work there is no doubt about that.

Digital

[shedder]

Amen.

[FuseU1]

Shed, are you following Dij around? [img]wink.gif[/img]
[*Amen.*]